The setting: an anonymous shopping mall in suburban Washington D.C. (one of those sprawling structures about which Terry Taylor wrote "it spreads like a blob and swallows your town."). Since hip-hop culture has begun to attract a white, middle-class audience, it seemed like an appropriate place to meet with two thirds of DC TALK, currently the hottest homeboys in Christian rap. DC TALK’s self-titled debut is the best-selling Christian rap-oriented album to date, and the trio’s follow up, Nu Thang, promises to do even better. This holiday season, DC TALK will probably be decking several thousand halls as one of the featured groups on the Yo! Ho-Ho Christmas sampler. "Christmas rapping" indeed!

So I settled in at a quiet eatery for a conversation with Toby "True M.C." McKeehan and Michael "Comfy" Tait. But wait--I said trio, didn’t I?--so where’s Kevin "K-Max" Smith? With some hesitation, Toby volunteered that "Kevin has a broken arm, and the doctor ordered him to stay home and get some rest." A playful jab in the ribs from Tait elicited the rest of the story. "Actually," Toby admitted sheepishly, "we were arm wrestling, and I broke it. I guess he couldn’t handle these ‘Popeye’ forearms of mine." (A later phone call to the management office would confirm that, during a moment of stress-relieving roughhouse on the tour bus, Smith’s arm was fractured. "Those boys," sighed the hurried manager. But at press time, all was healed and forgiven, and Kevin had resumed touring.)

To date, only a handful of non-black artists, such as the Beastie Boys and 3rd Bass, and a few rappers of other ethnic origins, such as Mellow Man Ace and the late D-Boy, have made much noise on the hip-hop scene. But Toby (who is white as is Kevin) and Michael (who is black) say they don’t define their music in black and white terms. "We love this question," asserts Toby. "See, I grew up on rap sounds. When your in a heavy hip-hop area like D.C., you can’t help but be influenced on a day-to-day basis. If you grow up in that atmosphere, it’s gonna fill your system with that vibe." DC TALK has managed to shatter at least one other stereotype too. "Toby and I went to rival high schools," says Michael, "but we never met because he was playing basketball, and I was singing in the glee club!" (All break into uncontrolled laughter at this point.)

After high school, McKeehan ad Tait headed for that hot-bed of contemporary Christian music, Liberty University, whose president is Jerry Falwell. (Say what?) Toby and Michael reveal their reasons for choosing Liberty. "My sister was there," says Michael, "and my dad said, ‘why don’t you go?’ And I wanted to sing gospel music, so it seemed like a good choice." Tait used his pipes to full effect on Falwell’s Old Time Gospel Hour.

McKeehan says, "I went because I’d grown up in a conservative family and a conservative church, and between Bob Jones and Liberty, Liberty was the more liberal place to go!" Back in the April ‘90 issue of CCM, Toby was quoted as saying "Liberty is not a real ‘contemporary Christian music’ campus," words that he’d like now to take back, or at least qualify. "I’m afraid some people at Liberty’s radio station, which does play contemporary Christian music, took offense to that. What I meant was, unlike other Christian schools like Wheaton College, who’ll bring in a Russ Taff, or a DeGarmo & Key, Liberty was more the Kim Boyce/Imperials crowd." Toby adds, "The first couple times DC TALK played in chapel, it wasn’t during the general chapel. One Friday each month, the student government runs the chapel and the faculty has their own meeting in another building. And we noticed that the only times we played in chapel were on the days when the faculty wasn’t around! But they were very supportive. After a couple semesters of us being around and selling the students our demo tapes, we eventually got to play in the general chapel." You couldn’t ask for a more ringing endorsement than that which Rev. Falwell gave, saying, "I sincerely believe their talent and love for people, along with their commitment to Christ, makes {DC TALK} very special....." "Of course," Tait adds, "that’s after we’d all been there at least three years," and McKeehan emphasizes, "I’m sure a lot had to do with the fact that our lyrics are straight up, out of the Word."

Each member of DC TALK quickly found his niche; Toby was the rapper and main lyricist, Kevin brought a rock edge to the singing, keyboard playing and sampling and Michael provided the gospel flavor that would keep the trio on the R&B tip.

Musical Mutants?

Despite their attempts to establish street credibility, DC TALK’s self-titled debut received critical dissin’ from several publications. A favorite phrase from one review which Toby and Michael brought up frequently during our conversation was "a musical mutant that no one could swallow." "That really shot down our self-confidence," confesses Toby, "since it came out one week after the record was released. We didn’t want to leave our apartment for days." "I was so mad," recalls Michael, "that I called up the magazine and pretended to be ‘a concerned fan’ just to let them know how upset I was." "You gotta understand," explains McKeehan, "at that point, we were dealing with a custom record, basically. The album was done, we did it all ourselves, before we’d even gotten a deal." Tait adds "even the guitar solos were sampled off a keyboard!"

With all the controversy surrounding the use of sampled vocals and backing tapes on stage, rap music has remained largely above that fray. "Most rappers don’t use live musicians and never have," offers Tait. "So people won’t see stacks of Marshalls out there when we play. But we definitely sing and rap everything live." "They might be a bit skeptical at first," admits Toby, "but when we jam for the Lamb, they’re down wit it."

Over the past two years DC TALK has toured nearly non-stop, alternately opening for DeGarmo & Key and the Newsboys, as well as doing select solo dates. "We have literally lived on the road for two years," says Toby. With an exhausted sigh, Michael adds "D&K worked us hard man, they broke us in real good." When pressed, Toby will admit that we have an apartment in Nashville that we go back to, when we must be there. Mike and I spend probably as much time in D.C. staying with our parents as we do anywhere else. Kevin claims D.C. as home too, but the road is really our home. That’s why we may as well say we live in our little mini-bus!"

The seasoning which comes with touring and the ability to collaborate with more accomplished musicians made a big difference in the production standards and the musical direction of Nu Thang. "To be honest with you, I think we’ve gotten more skilled at what we do," Toby asserts. "Kevin and Michael have learned a lot about how to weave their singing in and out of the raps. But to give credit where credit’s due, Mark Heimermann is a great producer. He’s got a real rock’n’roll attitude, and together with my hip-hop and R&B attitude, I think we had the right ingredients for Nu Thang."

Street Talk, Street Music

Several cuts on Nu Thang veer away from strictly praise, exhortation and evangelizing, into broader issues, such as racism ("Walls") and abortion ("Children Can Live Without It."). Michael Tait says DC TALK was warned that it might not be the best approach. "We were told by people that a lot of times ‘issue-oriented’ albums are not great sellers, or you’ll get a lot of flak for them. To be honest with you, we’re human, and we didn’t want to get laid out again. But if telling the truth hurts, then it’s just gonna have to hurt because that’s what we’re about. You know, racism is sin, abortion--to us--is sin." Toby claims the change in direction was not calculated. "The difference is where we are as human beings. When the first album was written, we were around 8000 Christians at Liberty, 24 hours a day. So we were saying, ‘rejoice, we’re heavenbound, we need to praise Him.’ You know, all the stuff on the first album. This new album was written on the road. We were counseling and praying with troubled kids every night--that’s what we saw, so that’s what came out of us when we wrote."

The tracks on Nu Thang (the liner notes accurately state) are chock full of "kickin programs" and "dope samples and scratches." Toby says that’s the real trade-mark of hip-hop recordings. "Samples have grown to be very important; we’re definitely down wit samples. But we don’t do the {M.C.} Hammer thing and sample a whole melody. We don’t want to overdo it. We’re not trying to play that hard-core hip-hop role. We’re definitely on the pop tip." But not so pop as to be compared, as they have been in the past, to New Kids On The Block?

"First of all," says Toby (voice rising slightly), "as you might be able to tell, we don’t like that comparison very much. New Kids are not a hip-hop group, and we are. Our grooves are hip-hop, our singers are hip-hop, and our rap is totally hip-hop. But anything a big audience buys becomes pop, and right now, rap and hip-hop are reaching a major audience, so in that sense, they’re ‘pop music.’ But I’ve played Nu Thang for a lot of brothers that are down with N.W.A. or Easy-E and the other hard-core stuff and they’ve said ‘yeah, that’s dope, that’s chill."

Although exhaustive touring has been mostly responsible for their quick success, Toby and Michael say another important factor has been the video exposure DC TALK has received. Following an interview on Black Entertainment Television’s Rap City show, earlier this year, a production assistant made an interesting comment to Tait. "She told me when our video for ‘Heavenbound’ first came in, it was supposed to be shown only on Sundays, with the rest of the gospel videos. But everybody liked it so much, they slipped it into prime time slots, alongside Bobby Brown, Paula Abdul, and all the rest of the ‘regular’ videos." Toby picks up the story, adding, "I think that should be the goal of Christian music. I’m not patting us on the back. But the quality of our music needs to be good enough to where it can be blatantly Christian, but it’s hooky and professional enough to get played anywhere." DC TALK will get a chance to test that theory, when the video for the song, "Walls," which addresses the problem of racism outside and inside the church, is released early in 1991.

A lot of folks think that rap music must be the easiest thing in the world to write. After all, you just flip on a drum machine, and make up some goofy rhymes, right? That’s wack, Jack! Take it, Toby. "I always pick a subject, and write a chorus. Then I start to write lyrics, with some type of beat in mind. The hardest thing to do is write music. I’m not a musician, so I knock heads with Kevin, and he picks things out on the keys." Michael chimes in with, "It’s got to feel good to me vocally. Sometimes those two get a thang together, and I have to cut ‘em off and say it ain’t workin’. So it really is a merging of three styles."

This past August, DC TALK had the opportunity to take their hip-hop hybrid to England, Germany, Holland, and Poland. Toby McKeehan says that "The European audiences didn’t seem that familiar with Christian rap. I think they took it as irreverant, at first." He recounts what they consider the highlight of the tour. DC TALK’s first Greenbelt Festival set. "We drove into Greenbelt, and headed for the tent they call ‘The Big Top.’ It was like a disco, and the kids were already jammin’ to some house music grooves. We took the stage, and the DJ mixed our tapes without missing a beat." Poland was a little more of a culture shock," recalls Michael. "We played at a Christian artists festival in a town called Katowice. It seemed like they had never seen a black person there, let alone a rapper! We got a lot of stares, but they got into our thang!" Toby says one of the coolest things about the trip was the relationships they developed with veteran contemporary Christian artists, like REZ and Darrell Mansfield. "They kind of adopted us," adds Michael. "I think they were impressed with the directness of rap, and the potential for ministering to a whole new group of kids." DC TALK will have the chance to reach an even larger audience in 1991, as they embark on a tour with Michael W. Smith.

As we looked at the crowd of shoppers outside the cafe, the subject turned to DC TALK’s role in ForeFront Records’ Yo! Ho-Ho Christmas rap project. "Look at the stores around the mall and you can see people already have Christmas stuff out," Toby marveled. (This interview took place in early October--Ed.) "Some have even had it on display for weeks. Think about when we were kids. The so-called ‘Christmas season’ didn’t even start ‘till Thanksgiving. It just seems you see more of Santa and less of Jesus all the time. I mean, wouldn’t you think it was weird not to be the focus of your own birthday? So we kind of started playing with some lyrics I had already started writing, and came up with three tracks. E.T.W. are on there--gotta plug our labelmates--also Stephen Wiley, Transformation Crusade and M.C. GeGee and D-Boy."

Remembering D-Boy

Toby and Michael seemed anxious to pay tribute to their friend, the late D-Boy Rodriguez, who was killed in Dallas last October. D-Boy’s family piloted an inner-city church there, and were working to neutralize gang violence. McKeehan remembers D-Boy’s gift for touching people. "D-Boy was very influential on DC TALK. He had exactly the kind of attitude that we’d like to try and emulate. He encouraged us, telling us he loved us. He wasn’t trying to play any kind of games; he was just so humble. Obviously, his ministry was having an impact. Man, we’re really going to miss him."

Violence and sex are the center of the controversy surrounding many mainstream rap artists. As this story was being written, Miami, Florida rappers 2 Live Crew were facing charges of performing obscene lyrics in a public concert. Toby fears that many Christians still judge all rap music on the basis of allegations against a handful of more extreme artists.

"I went to the Lincoln and Jefferson Memorials the other day. You know how you kind of take them for granted when you live here? I read the walls, and man, I just came away convinced that when our forefathers talked about freedom of speech, when they were laying down the laws and principles of this country, I’ll guarantee you they didn’t think anybody would take it this far. Not that if they had to do it over again, they would change things. But the idea that someone would be rude enough and crude enough to do what’s really audio porn. Why can someone talk about ‘being so horny’ on public airwaves? That’s ill, man. I think Abe would’ve been into Christian rap. He was about the principles of God. I sure couldn’t see him approving of this other stuff. Even some of the secular rappers are starting to admit publically that they need to take responsibility for what they say in their songs. They’re starting to realize how much influence music has on kids."

Michael Tait says DC TALK is taking the direct approach of hip-hop and turning it around as a selling point to the Christian marketplace. "You can be just as explicit with the Gospel as you can with anything else rappers write about. Our lyrics are in your face, there’s no doubt. If you can’t understand them, read the insert. Nothing’s covered up or watered down." Toby McKeehan adds, "To me, it’s a perfect fit--Gospel lyrics and hip-hop. The essence of rap is explicitness, but in our case, it’s being explicit about the message of Jesus Christ. That’s what our name stands for--Decent Christian Talk! Word!"